[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to from caving in to crushing it, the podcast for those who find themselves immersed in adversity and choose to write their story instead of having others write it for them. I'm Drew Deraney, and I'm your host. Today's guest is John Wyman. After being diagnosed with cirrhosis and giving two months to live, John overcame tremendous adversity as he had two strokes seizures where he flatlined twice, 4000 pounds of fluid drained from his body, and a dozen surgeries while waiting twelve years for his liver transplant. While waiting for transplant, John built a nationally recognized marriage counseling practice. Today, John considers himself a liver transplant thriver and he believes being given two months to live is the best thing that ever happened to him. He takes time to appreciate life every day and is crushing it in his practice.
Enjoy the show. John Wyman, awesome to see you, my friend.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Great to see you, Drew.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: How are you? I'm doing well and I'm looking forward to this, man. Because with my show, it's like I always talk about authenticity and I do that. I don't edit this thing.
Everything's on the table, whatever people want to talk about. Because the whole idea behind what I want is I want people to be inspired by the guest and to know that with their current hardships, they're not on an island all by themselves. And there are people out there who've gone through stuff and there's always people who want to help you and mentor you. So to not think you're alone and then you can reach out for know another. Know when we're kids, John, and I'm sure this happened to you. Weren't you taught that life is linear? That if you do all the right things, John, you do a plus B plus C plus D. And that can be go to school, college, get married, everything's going to fall into place and you'll be all set. Absolutely right.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: I was supposed to go to Princeton.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: So that wasn't true. Because everybody is just teaching us what they learned from their parents and their parents and they don't really interject what happened to them, really. So we grow up thinking it's a straight line and then something steps in between those letters of a plus b and we have to make a decision, right? And we can decide. A lot of us don't realize we have a choice. We can choose to retreat and give up, or we can choose to move forward and become stronger for our adversities as opposed to despite them. That's why I wanted you on.
I know you've gone through a lot in your life and I know you're willing to share and I'm sure there's a few of these defining moments we talk about. But reach back wherever you want to go and give the audience one or two of these defining moments. Whether it was a tap on the shoulder or a two x four upside the head that woke you up and said, hey, john, better way to live, dude. You better pay attention. Do something different.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Okay, well, I'll start with the two x four.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: All right.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: 16 years ago, I walked into St. Joe's hospital here with stomach pain.
And after 4 hours of testing the doctor finally came in and said, all right, here's the deal. You're in complete liver failure. You keep doing what you're doing, you'll be dead in two months.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: That's a two by four.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: That's a two by four. Yeah.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: And I said, okay, I'll stop. And I stopped immediately. Stopped drinking immediately. I didn't do aa. I didn't do anything like that in my field. One of my mentors told me, and it's so true, john, you got to realize it's six months before they stop lying. And a lie I recently admitted to myself recently was it was so easy for me to stop because I thought, well, I don't want to die. Of course I stopped drinking. Of course I did.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: I don't want to die.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Well, the truth was that I walk every morning.
I thought dying would hurt.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: I didn't want the pain of dying.
I saw that guy in a bed and I was like, oh, no. No way. I don't want that.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: So it was really easy for me to just say, well, I didn't want to die, of course. Come on, Drew. I didn't want to die. So I stopped drinking. It was easy.
It was about pain. And through my journey waited twelve years for a liver transplant. Wow. Again. Died four times, two strokes when I was on life support for five days.
Seizures, where I flatlined, 4000 pounds of fluid drained from my body.
Yeah. But I'll tell you what. If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: I expected you to say that and tell us why you would do it again in a heartbeat.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: I began to appreciate life, really. I stopped to take the time to really look at what it'd be like if you asked me when I was sick. Hey, John, what are you doing for Thanksgiving? I'd say, drew, man, I'm trying to make it to tomorrow.
And I began to just really appreciate and I take the time every morning we live on the water and I sit out and I just watch nature for like 2 hours.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: And I never noticed a butterfly before.
It was so cool to see it.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: It is amazing because it's those things like that we take for granted when we're just focusing on really going through autopilot, just trying to. Whether it's the business, making money, getting all the things we want in life, and we don't realize those little things 2 hours in nature every morning. That is a habit you built that I'm sure has helped you stay in the present moment and not be too consumed with other things, either the past or what's on the horizon. Right?
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's just really taking the time to be grateful for everything. And in my wait for twelve years for a transplant, oh, by the way.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: They found cancer when they found the liver, not when they diagnosed you. You're talking about twelve years later. Then they take out. Oh, my gosh. So that was like, okay, thank you for removing it and putting a new liver in, but thanks for that news. How'd you handle that news?
[00:07:12] Speaker B: Oh, well, they told me we think we got it all. Oh, we think we do. We're not sure, but we think we do. So we're going to have to test you every three months for five years.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Okay.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: And I'm in year three now.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: No signs, clean and all that. That's awesome.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Again, I'd say the tap on the shoulder one.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah. When was that?
[00:07:39] Speaker B: That was probably about a year after I got sick. People kept telling me to have the positive perspective and I'm like, are you kidding me?
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Are you serious?
In that year, I saw three people die.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: Wait, from what you had or what I had?
[00:07:58] Speaker B: From cirrhosis.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Okay.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: And total, I saw 14 people die. I'm the only one alive.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: And somebody's telling me, be positive, be positive. And I'm like, you got to be kidding me. You don't know what you're talking about.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Right?
[00:08:17] Speaker B: I slowly bought in with that tap on the shoulder.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: And about a year later, after I started to buy in, I got healthier. I was still sick, obviously, but even my blood work improved.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: It's unbelievable how it's really a causation too. Not really a correlation, they say.
Okay, so the blood work started to improve and that probably in turn even got you to be more positive because you're like, oh, shoot, this positive stuff's working. Let me make it work. Faster, I'm going to be even more positive.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah. I literally thought, I remember that defining moment. I'm like, wow, I've had a positive attitude. Am I healthier because I have a positive attitude, or do I have a positive attitude because I'm healthier? I don't care.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: It didn't matter.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I just know it worked. I say today, being diagnosed with cirrhosis is one of the best things that ever happened to me.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Unbelievable.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Everything good in my life happened after I was given to.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: After that. Well, let's talk about that when you were diagnosed. We know now that you are in marriage counseling. You're a marriage counselor. Were you a marriage counselor at the time you were diagnosed?
[00:09:31] Speaker B: No.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: All right.
I want to hear what you were doing and what your mindset was in that professional field and then how this whole transition went. Two x four, tap on the shoulder, then you're in another field.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: Okay.
I'm remarried. I was originally married for 14 years. While right at the beginning of my marriage, I was in this field working with one of the best in the world, a guy by the name of Dr. James Masterson. And that linear path, I was going to get my PhD and working at the Masterson Institute and retired at 50.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: And what was the industry at the Masterson Institute?
[00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I worked in a psych hospital.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Recreational therapist.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: Got it. Okay, so there's the straight line, Lenny. You're on your way to get the PhD. And then some stuff happened. Okay.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
Marriage started a family, and it was, hey, we have to go and get a real job, so to speak. Hospital didn't pay well, and so I left the field.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Okay.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: And I could go into the caving of that. It was basically, don't be like your dad.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Oh, boy.
The shame and guilt part, well, that.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Happens when your father marries the secretary and leaves your mother basically homeless.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: That will do it. Oh, my gosh. That's some trauma to deal with. Okay. All right.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: Denial is a powerful weapon.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely is. Okay.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: So we left the field, moved to Maryland.
I went to work for a marketing company that basically sells.
Why? I'd like to say shit with your name on it. T shirts, pens.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Got it, got it.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: All that stuff. And there's a lot of money in.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: In the troubles in my marriage, I decided to go out on my own.
The critical business mistake I made was one customer accounted for 90% of my business.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Okay.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: And they moved away. And talk about caving in.
My mom also during that time, she died, and I had a close friend die.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Caving in is putting it nicely.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Oh, boy. And you were still with the first wife at this time?
[00:12:07] Speaker B: No. Divorce happened during that time.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Divorce also happened during that time. So when it rains, it pours.
Okay, so now all of this happened and you found yourself in financial relationship. I'm sure some spiritual downs.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: Okay, tell me about that.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: And I recently came to terms with this and realized this.
How history repeats itself.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Well, in my parents divorce, none of my friends, no one knew for five years.
Guess what I did with my ex? We kept it a secret for five years.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: The same thing repeated the same. Wow.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And that took a lot a toll on me.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Well, I'm sure when your parents did, it took a toll on you as a child.
You didn't even be able to say, did you know that they were or they told you and you weren't allowed to say anything? Don't say anything.
[00:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I couldn't. In adolescence, I realized this again not too long ago. I couldn't bring a date home to introduce them to my parents.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: Shoot.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: And I couldn't also because of that, I didn't even know how to go knock on a door and say, I'm here to pick up your daughter.
I'd never done that.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: With the splitting of my parents, that type of guidance I didn't have because I went to a boarding school, so there was never go meet the parents.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Wow. So you didn't have that male role model to kind of walk you those ropes. Exactly. And now you recreated history and at the time you weren't thinking about that.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: No. That's clueless to it.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: And you had kids at the time or. No, two boys.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: How did they handle that? Not being able to say anything?
[00:14:10] Speaker B: It was interesting.
We didn't talk about much. I remember one time, the town gossip lady.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Oh, jeez.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: After three years of separation, went up to my ex with my eleven year old son and said, I'm so sorry to hear that you and John are separated.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Oh, God.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: And she said, I don't know what you're talking about. We've never been happier in front of my son.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: And then she goes home, calls me at my apartment and says, you have to call her husband and set him straight.
And I did that for the benefit of my children. Or what I thought was the benefit.
Again, I would say the trauma of my own parents divorced.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: It's like just, hey, if that's what's needed, we'll do it. And I did okay. I was really lost. But I guess to get back to this field, my mother, when I was first in it, she said to me, john, you have a gift.
My mom was a therapist, and I'm like, yeah.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: So she talking about.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: And she said, you see people, you see them. And I didn't understand what she meant.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: And when I now sit in sessions and they're talking literally like me watching a movie, and I see the reactions of what they're describing.
I wish I could tell you how. And I describe it, and they're like, that's exactly what was happening.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Very lucky.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Now, when you're actually in a session and the couple is saying what they're saying, are you able to know if they're being their true selves or if they're wearing the mask and all know?
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Yes. And a lot of times, again, talking about another tappy moment, John, you got to realize it's six months before they stop lying.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: Six months.
So what that meant is, six months into counseling, they're lying. For the first six months, probably not realizing they're lying. They believe that truth.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: And then the walls start breaking down because they trust you a little more, or they're done with the lying, and then they come clean, and then that's when the work starts, I guess.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
They don't know. It's not like they went to one grocery store when they went to another.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: They're saying, oh, this is what happened. This is what I really felt.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: Yes. My ex wife and I, we went to a mediator first. Okay.
And we stayed with the mediator. That's how it was all.
She called us on our stuff, like, way earlier than the six months.
Want to drag this out? Keep doing what you're doing. And we're like, oh, shit. All right. For the kids, we will.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Well, you know, it's interesting.
I didn't even have a lawyer.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Okay. Wow.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: My parents divorce in the 70s was over $500,000 in legal fees in five years.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: And I sat there and I said, don't be like mom and dad. Just, you know what? Let her get a lawyer, and I sign.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: Whatever she wanted. She got the house. She got my retirement.
I basically gave her three times the amount of money that the court guidelines said.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: Wow.
You just wanted it done to suffer.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't want my kids to suffer. I wanted the money to go to them instead of lawyers.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: Well, how'd you handle it? Because obviously, it's now money out of your pocket, too.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: How'd you handle that eviction, 38 months in a row.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah. That's how I was thinking that might happen. Okay.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: And again, I tend to look back at that. Look at it positively gave me the confidence that I can survive anything. I sold my car to not get evicted.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. All right.
You knew what it was like to be on nearly that rock bottom at that point. All right, so obviously you dug yourself out.
The divorce is behind you now with the liver transplant. How did you meet your second wife? Because that was a cool story, if I remember Sherry.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Well, we met online and I didn't have anything to offer anyone.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: And I. I decided I was gonna.
I. In my childhood, adolescence, when I dated, I did it to be accepted.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: Got it.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: I wasn't authentic in that way.
And very honestly, whoever I dated on some level, without me admitting it, they were my family, because I'm living with my father and his secretary.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Family was gone, and I was the youngest.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: I just look at that period. And I met my wife online, and one of the changes I made was I made the decision. I hate people who are great first dates. Great first dates because they're full of it.
When we met, I decided that I'm going to be the worst first date. And one of the things she says to me, I'll keep politics out of it. But it was into it. She asked me what political party I was, okay. And she said, because if you're not my party, that's a big red flag.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: And I said, whatever party you are, I'm the opposite.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: I was just like, look, I'm not going to do this thing of faking it. And I'll never forget, we walked out of the place, the pink flamingo, and I literally fell to the ground with liver, stomach pain.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: After the first date.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah. First date.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:57] Speaker B: We were walking to our car and she was so cool.
I felt so embarrassed. And she's like, it's okay, it's okay. Let's get you to the bench and I'll go get the car and pick you up. And I'm like, okay, I'm really sorry. And she's like, really? Don't worry about it. And she got me to our car. We did the kiss goodnight thing.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: Was this before you were diagnosed? Did you know what was happening?
[00:21:27] Speaker B: This was after I was diagnosed.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: After. Okay, so you knew. Okay.
And that's how she found out?
[00:21:34] Speaker B: No, I told her.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: You did? Okay. Got you.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah. This is kind of interesting.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: I like the authenticity and honesty on the first date. No joke. No joke. It needs to be that way.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: None.
I saw this thing on HBO. Not 50, but 21st dates. And this guy went on these dates to really learn about himself and figure out what he wanted. So I decided to do that.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: The first date I went on, the woman said, oh, my God, I'm not divorced. I can't be seen out in public with a guy. I'm like, cool.
The second date said, john, I was very upfront about my illness. She goes, I can't deal with that. The third date, she said it was going well. We went out for coffee and she said, but, john, you're dying.
And I said, so are you. What's your.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: Love? That answer.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: The fourth one showed up to lunch high and drunk. I was like, no, that's not going to work. And it was the next one, Sherry. And she was so cool. And I love it. I'll never forget driving home to my apartment. I called her and I was like, hey, I know I seemed like a real jerk and I just wanted you to know I really appreciate what you did. And I had a really good time.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: Good for you.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: She said, I knew what you were doing. I knew you were kidding. And I had a lot of fun, too.
But then what happened was, as we started to date, I decided I wanted to go back into this field of psychology. And we were talking about it. I was, you know, I messed up my marriage, so I want to find out about that. And I found the Gottman Institute, which I am biased, but I think it's the best, okay? And I completed my training.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Good for you.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: And after I completed it, Drew, it sucked.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: No kidding. Okay.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: And I'll tell you why.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: Because I was making $30,000 a year.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: When was this?
[00:23:48] Speaker B: This was twelve years ago.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: Wow. Jeez. Okay. They really didn't pay well.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: My God, I took these lousy jobs just to survive, so I take the training and I can't afford an office.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Oh, jeez.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: And I'm like, I can't believe know I wasted the time and the money I had. And Sherry said to know I was in my apartment. She was in her house. She said, well, why don't you just use my living room?
I'm like, what?
[00:24:25] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: And she said, yeah, just use my living room. I'm like, you realize you're going to have people coming to your house that you don't know and they don't like each other. That's crazy. And she said, that's okay. We'll just put up two doors to make it private for you so you.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Knew right away you wanted to do marriage counseling as opposed to psych stuff. Okay, absolutely.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Because I realized I messed up mine.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Got it. And you wanted to find out. Okay, I get it.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: What makes it work?
[00:24:52] Speaker A: I get it. Makes sense.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: When I asked her, I was like, why would you do this? And she said, the number one thing I learned at the Gottman Institute, she said, you said it was your dream. I want you to have your dream.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: That's amazing that you found someone who was willing. Yeah.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: Fast forward twelve years, and now people online say nice things about me.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: I love that you're talking about authenticity. Because my first day of practice, I made a promise to myself that I kept today. Still haven't. And the promise was, if I think it, I say it. I don't care who it is. I've seen some very high profile people. I'm like, no, sorry. I thought it. I'm saying it.
And it hasn't been easy, but it's been 100%.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I always would say, he doesn't have a filter. She doesn't have a filter.
Filters are appropriate at some point, but there are many times where a filter is not appropriate, because then we are not allowing people to really know who we are. And then we get the comment, oh, that's out of character of you. And I say, well, it's really not. It's always been me. The person you knew was out of character.
Yeah, I don't want to hear that out of character thing anymore. Good for you, man. Good for you.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: I'll tell you a funny one I'm literally actually wearing.
I met with this big Hollywood star through Zoom, and he comes on screen and he's like, he doesn't see me in a suit and tie.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: And he says to. It's like, who the hell is this guy? How is he? And she goes, I checked him out. He's good. He's good.
I used to wear a suit and tie, and I'm like, that's not me.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: You didn't feel comfortable doing it. Just didn't feel. Yeah, good.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
I tell people, again, in terms of authenticity, I call it Ed Sheeran, the singer. Just think out.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Just.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Just think out loud.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: Say you end up surrounding yourself with the people who lift you up rather than knock you down when you are who you are. Because they have a choice now. They can either say, screw you, I don't like the way you are, or, I'll stay with you. And if they stay and they know who you are, they're going to be supporters. So I like that. I love that approach.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't talk in that therapist voice of Drew.
Are you feeling okay today?
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Yeah, please don't. I don't like that. Don't talk like Drew.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: What's your problem?
[00:27:37] Speaker A: Don't use that.
So I would love to be a fly on the wall when you kind of address people's excuses, because I know a lot of excuses are made in the divorce counseling or whatever.
I'm sure. Do you call them out on their excuses?
[00:27:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. That's one of the things Masterson taught me, is you got to confront the client. You got to confront hear.
One of the things I ask in the introduction is for them to define love, and they say some nonsense like, oh, it's unconditional acceptance. It's always been there and all that. And then I'll go to the other one, and I'll say, okay, you heard his definition. Based on his definition and only what he just said, do you feel he loves you?
And the woman will go, yeah, I feel he loves me. I think he loves me. I'm like, no, you're here because he's not doing that.
He's not unconditionally accepting you. Are you serious?
Like, literally?
[00:28:53] Speaker A: Well, you asked them the first six months, because you know they're going to be lying.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Ask them in the first session.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: First session.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: And I've literally never had two people that have said yes and yes.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: No, I wouldn't think so. Yeah.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Then I say, well, I didn't define it. You did. And guess what? He said. No, you don't do that. Why can't you live up to your own definition?
[00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
So I have a question for you. So, as a marriage counselor, right.
How do you measure your success in your field?
Is it. I've saved 75% marriages. Some shouldn't be saved.
I wouldn't know how to determine my success in a field like yours a couple of ways.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: One, I was floored after, um, because they're trying to get the anti rejection drugs right.
One day I'm on the bed crying like a baby, and the next day, the nurse's aide comes in and says, john, it's time to sit in the chair. And I said, you take a step in this room, I'll punch you in your face.
And he's like, whoa. And the surgeon comes in, and I'm two and a half hours away. I'm in Philly. I live in Baltimore, two and a half hours away. And the surgeon comes in and says, john, we'd like to have you talk to the transplant team psychiatrist, and I'm like, okay, sure, bring him in. I'd love to talk to him. And Marco comes in and says to me, hey, John, first of all, I know who you are. I know what you do for a living, and I know how good you are doing it.
Like, wow, that's pretty cool.
And two and a half hours away.
That was a very proud moment.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: That's a good measurement of that.
[00:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And then the other thing is, I encourage you, challenge you, and I'm 100% confident.
Go out there and find someone who has more five star reviews than me.
My reviews are unsolicited.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: I've never asked for one.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: Never asked. Okay.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: There is one person who, a colleague of mine, Ingrid Felton. Ingrid has more than I do, and I refer people to her. She refers them to me.
I just don't feel comfortable.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: I understand that in your field. I completely understand that. What I'm curious about is, you look at those five star reviews. What percent of those couples stayed together and what percentage ended up in divorce? I'm curious, have you ever looked at that?
[00:31:57] Speaker B: That's a great question.
I know the majority of them stay together. I would say over 75%. But what's even more interesting.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Is some of them that got divorced wrote reviews.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: And that, to me, I would think that's even a greater measure of success, provided they weren't, like, bashing the x review, too.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: But if, I mean, basically, my take on in these sessions is, it's really simple.
All you have to be able to do is look in the mirror and say, I did everything I could, I could. And if the mirror says, yes, you have. You two will be fine.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Absolutely fine.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: So whether it works or not, as long as they can look in the.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: Mirror, they're absolutely, absolutely. Geez, I could talk to you for forever, John. All right, so before I get to my last two questions, I know that the audience has certainly captured the essence of Wyman. And so audience, in order to get to know John Moore or learn more about him and his practice, if you google life bridge coaching, all one, all three words. And John Wyman. Yeah, three words. Lifebridge coaching, John Wyman, you will find lifebridgecoaching.com. Basically. Yes.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: One thing you'll find, you'll also find him in it on LinkedIn and all that on his website. You'll learn a lot about his practice, his life story. He does talk about the diagnosis of cirrhosis and that whole journey. He's definitely somebody you'll want to get to know, especially if you want to know somebody who's authentic.
And, John, in your practice, do you do marriage counseling remotely or is it only in person?
[00:33:51] Speaker B: I actually do worldwide.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Worldwide. Okay. Good to know, folks. Worldwide. All right.
If you have challenges in Australia. Oh, really? Oh, no.
Yeah. So reach out if you have questions about your marriage or even just want to strengthen it or enhance the connection or, you know, actually, one question I didn't ask you, which I was really thinking about, it, is how in the US, there are four taboo topics that people say don't talk about, especially in business, and that's sex, money, religion and politics. All right, so I'm wondering, I have a theory that those couples that have been together for a long time, and it's a quote unquote happy marriage, did discuss those four taboo topics early in the relationship to set and manage expectations. So there were no surprises. I also wonder if there is a correlation between those couples who don't talk about those four things early on and end up getting divorced because there are a ton of freaking surprises during the marriage. Do you talk about those four taboo topics?
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I'll tell you that the data on this 67% of conflict is called perpetual conflict.
[00:35:13] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: And what that is is the history of your position long before you two ever met. So naturally, you both think you're right. Whether there's someone who's a saver. Right. Financially, someone who's saver and saying, hey, you know what? You live once. I'm going to spend. You're crazy. You're boring. I'm going to spend.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: Why?
[00:35:35] Speaker B: I have it. I could die tomorrow. Well, in perpetual conflict, what I like to say is, I don't like the word compromise. I like to say, what are you willing to bring to the table?
[00:35:45] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:35:47] Speaker B: So if you're willing to.
It's not compromise.
[00:35:52] Speaker A: I love that. Because compromise, somebody's losing.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: And it's more like a collaboration that you will have the same goal. Let's work together. I love that approach, John. That's awesome.
Now, another thing is, somebody told me a statistic that you think about the corporate world, and I know as men that it happened to me when I was going through my divorce. The divorce was final and the three years of mediation, I changed as a person. I was not happy and I lost focus in the workplace. And I ended up being fired six months after my divorce, which is costly to me but also costly to the organization I was with because now I got to hire somebody else. And all that I almost wondered. And it's kind of like what I want to get involved in, too, is help the middle managers at these corporations kind of navigate the corporate world, because I would think that companies lose a ton of money when one of their employees goes through some kind of marital discord or relationship issue. So I would think your service would be freaking awesome in corporate.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: What's that shock you? Because I recently started to do corporate work. You did do a three hour lecture, hour of what makes marriage work, hour of what breaks it, and an hour.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: Of questions for the employees in a corporate location.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: Zoom. 500 of them can sign on.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Good for you.
[00:37:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
Here's the wake up call for companies.
Divorce costs companies over $150,000,000,000.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: So as the company, I do these seminars at night, and the employee can go home, have their wife husband with them, and they can listen to it. And if we're saving a few, if they're taking the information, they can take the information and use it from the seminar. They may decide to book sessions. They may say, that was good. So it's also good public relations for the companies because it's saying, hey, we care about you at home as well as here, but it's also smart business.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: I love this, John, because I said it, just because I thought there'd be a need in that. The fact that there are companies out there that have not only entertained the possibility of doing it, actually doing it, they're kind of walking the talk. And I'm hoping that these organizations share what they're doing with other organizations. So the word is spread because this whole work life balance people talk about, I think, is a bunch of bull.
The human nature. You're going to take one thing from the other, and sometimes it's a good. Because some people have strengths in one area and should use that same strength in both the professional and personal. So, yeah, there's a blurred line with this work life balance, and that's okay.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: Wake up call for you. I had a lawyer whose name was on the building.
He was working so much, his wife literally bought a house and left him.
[00:39:06] Speaker A: Oh, jeez.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: He ended up in a psych hospital for 30 days, got discharged to me.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: And we were talking one day, and I was like, hey, how much did this cost you?
And he said, oh, my God, john, divorce among me and the partners cost us over $2 million in billions this year.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: That's where I got the idea. I was like, hey, do you mind if I come in? He said, oh, yeah, definitely.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: Yeah, there's definitely something there, John, so good for you. Good for you. All right, so before we wrap up, I've got two final questions. All right, so you have the opportunity to sit down with young John wyman, young seven to ten year old John, and you want to give him advice about life. What are you going to tell him?
[00:39:59] Speaker B: Wow. Great question.
Probably the most important thing is to have enough courage to be yourself.
I remember, for example, in 6th grade, my two best friends walked away from me. We walked to school together every day, and they walked away from me, and they said, we can't be friends with you anymore because we like girls and you're not cool enough, too, and walked away, and my life kind of went shattered. And 7th grade. That was 6th grade. 7th grade, I began to drink.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: And I remember the first bonfire for the school football game. I got drunk, and I went to all these people to be accepted, and I wasn't me.
And very honestly, not until Sherry, have I been me.
[00:41:08] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: So I would tell that kid, you have to have the courage to be yourself.
Some things we can change, some things we can't.
[00:41:19] Speaker A: Got it.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: And that has to be okay.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Wow. Awesome advice. All right, so we'll switch hats. Now you're sitting down with young John, the entrepreneur. Young businessman. You want to give him advice about business. What are you going to tell him?
[00:41:35] Speaker B: Find an area of need that the customer needs and build a model around it. For example, in my practice, people love it. I don't do the hour thing of, oh, Drew, you're saying something important right now.
[00:41:54] Speaker A: Really?
[00:41:54] Speaker B: I need your credit card.
I charge per session, and they can call me between sessions anytime they want.
[00:42:04] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:42:05] Speaker B: So in every area, in any type of people's company, I remember when I owned a marketing company. Right. Well, one of the first things I did was we brought silk screening and embroidery in house.
Instead of depending on someone else to do it, we bought the material of the company, and we did it.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: We hired employees to do it. So having that control, if you needed 100 t shirts tomorrow, I made the decision whether that could be done. I didn't have to go make calls and everything. So you want to always, whatever business you're in, look for the areas of need.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: And attack it because it's there and the customers are screaming for it.
[00:42:52] Speaker A: Absolutely. No, that's great advice. Absolutely. Most entrepreneurs do it.
Boy, this was unbelievable. First of all, I want to thank Michael overly for the introduction. I always like to thank the people who introduce good human beings to other human beings. So Mike's, like, a wonderful guy.
John, thank you for coming into my life, man. I'm grateful this happened for a reason, and this will just be another one of the times we talk.
Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. All right, man. Thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate you, John.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: All right.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: Take care, everybody.
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and give us a review to help others find it. If you find yourself immersed in adversity and would like to find support from other men in times of struggle, please become a member of my men's supporting men collaboration tribe by emailing me at
[email protected] expressing your interest, and I'll get in touch with you. Speak to you soon. Bye.
