[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to from caving in to crushing it, the podcast for those who find themselves immersed in adversity and choose to write their story instead of having others write it for them. I'm Drew Deraney, and I'm your host.
All right, this made my day. Melissa Van Os. How are you?
[00:00:26] Speaker B: I am wonderful. How are you, Drew?
[00:00:28] Speaker A: I'm doing well. Thanks so much for coming on. And it's funny, we've known each other for a while now, and obviously you helped me get my book out there to the masses, and I appreciate you for that. I appreciate you for a lot of things, and a lot of those things will come out today in our discussion.
But just how you embrace life has rubbed off on me and has helped me.
And I'm going to guess that you've maybe not always been this way. Maybe you have. But then we're going to find out, because we're taught at a young age that life is linear, right? We're taught that, hey, Melissa, if you do A-B-C and d, you're going to get to e, and we believe it, and then we do those steps and something gets in our way that wasn't part of that formula. And we have a decision to make. And some of us move forward, either plow through it or move around it and some retreat. I don't see you as the one who.
So if you could reach back as far as you like and grasp that defining moment, that was something that just hit you and made you realize, you know, Melissa, there is a better and different way to live. And I'm going to take that route. We'll go from there.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Okay.
So I would say there's probably two things, actually, that come to mind when you ask that question. One happened when I was a little bit younger. I would say, like, late elementary, middle school range type of thing, and one would be more like high school range. But the first thing was that I was a kid in my neighborhood.
So I guess from a young age, I was an entrepreneur a little bit because I had a paper route. I don't know if they probably don't even do that much anymore, but as a kid, you ride your bike and you throw the papers. And I even got chased by a dog one time and got scared to death and made my stepdad drag me around for, like, a couple of weeks until the dog was, like, away.
So I would do my paper route every day, have my little stash of cash, and my best friend lived basically, like, two streets in front of me. And I'm from a very small town, like, one traffic light in the midwest. If you blink, you miss it. So more soybeans than people type of feel to it. I'm a country girl, actually, and so my best friend's mom, she was a volunteer for our little local fire department paramedic. Because it was such a small town, it was only volunteer. I think we had like, one, maybe two policemen that were paid. Everything else was like volunteer kind of community. And as I was coming down the street on my bike to give her her paper, finishing my paper route, I saw her run out of the house with her stuff on. And I said to her, oh, good luck with your call. I hope everything's okay, because I knew when she had her stuff on, she was obviously going to, like a fire, like an ambulance call or something. And when I got to the end of my paper route to turn on my street home, I realized that she was going to my house.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: No. Oh, my gosh.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: So I rode up, and my mom, my sister, and everyone was there. They were putting the fire out. Literally, my house burned down to the ground.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: Melissa gone. Everything, like, no more barbies, no more toys, everything, like, boom. So from the time I started my paper out till I got home, I didn't have a place to live anymore.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Okay, so that was like, whoa. I mean, as a kid, it's already scary when something happens as an adult, but as a kid, that's even a little more like, oh, my gosh, all of our stuff's gone. Where are we going to live, what's happening? Things like that. And luckily, because I think, again, being from a small community, people automatically started collecting things in school for clothes and the church and helping us get a hotel for a day. And we stayed out of my grandparents and the whole process, I don't even remember how long it took before we had a house again, but it was like a while.
And so that was like, for me, a moment. I don't always think about it, per se, but I think it really ingrained to me somewhat of a lesson about just how quickly things can change. Like, your life was fine, and then it's kind of not, and you don't have any more stuff. And then almost. Secondly, it would be, don't get attached to know, because certainly in America, we're very stuff driven, right? Keeping up with the Jones and having the greatest, latest, and best of know. It's a billion dollar industry that we have so much stuff we pay to store our stuff somewhere else, not to use.
So it kind of taught know, be grateful for what you do have and people can be nice to pull together and just the idea that things can be temporary because if it's gone in a second, I mean, it's gone. There are certain things that just can't be replaced, but most things can, right? So you can rebuild. So to me, it was like a lesson of figuring out how to be resilient, learning that things can be rebuilt, not having a clutching attachment to physical possessions and surrounding that type of thing.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: You could have taken a different mindset or a different approach to that. You could have taken the blame or the victim mentality. And woe is me, and I want my stuff back and all that.
At that age, that seems like there was some maturity there, unless this just came to you later on in life, but there are a lot of gratitude there and resilience. Did you have that skill at that time?
[00:06:59] Speaker B: I think I just knew that. I was like, well, we just make the best of it. And I was really close with my grandparents. And like, every summer when school is out, I'd run away there the whole summer. I'd be like, you'll see me when school starts. Bye, mom. I'm out of here. So to me, some of it was like, oh, I'm so happy because.
Happy. But I am happy because I get to stay in my grandparents house longer. And she packs me my lunch, and we get all the fun stuff. She gives us a couple of bucks for school with our little lunch bag.
It was like getting close to my grandparents going through it, but just having that different thing. Like, we had to buy lunch at home, but at grandma's, we got to pack the lunch. We had to walk at home to school, but at grandma's, we got to ride the school bus, get a little stash of couple bucks for pop. We call it pop in Ohio. Coke, Pepsi at the vending machine, a couple of bucks in there if you want to pop after school or something and that type of stuff. And then one time, actually, my house burned down twice. What? Yeah, twice this happened. So two times we lost everything.
Yeah. The second time, I was a little older, and I definitely remember that they took school, like, collection of clothes at school for us and things like that. And there's the popular kids in school, and they have the more designer clothes and things, right? And so back in our. Right, Drew, it was like Jordash jeans, Brooke shields and her Jordash jeans. And I always wanted a pair of Jordash jeans. And so, surprisingly enough, one of the popular girls in my class, her mom donated clothes and a pair of Jordan sheens were there.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Something to be thankful for.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: I was so happy. I. Jordan, is that when you started.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Being the fashionista and really.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess got me in the club a little bit, like, yes, I'm there.
I guess it was like those little, what do they call it? Silver linings of those terrible situations that happen.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: And you had two solid support systems for each of those occasions. One family, and then, I guess, the neighbors, too. And then you had school, the community. So I'm sure that helped with the resiliency and with the gratitude, having those components early in life.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: How did you get through those two things? I'm not even going to ask you how your house burned down twice, but I'm sure there's a story behind.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Oh, I'm listening to everyone, and you'll see, in my house, if it's not being used, it's not being plugged in, because at least, well, one was a dryer thing. Okay, faulty thing was that. The second one was an appliance using an extension cord. So you'll see there's never really any extension cords in my house. I don't leave things plugged in and roll out. So some of these things, that is.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Something that a lot of people don't know. It's not just a safety factor, it's also a cost factor. Even though you might not have something turned on if it's plugged in, you're paying for that electricity, right?
[00:10:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's like a twofer for me. It's just like, I don't leave things plugged in. I mean, the only things that are plugged in when I go, certainly, like out of town or something, would be like the stove, the refrigerator, that's probably it. Maybe the Roku. So it saves my logins because I'm lazy. But even the tv will be unplugged, everything, because I'm just probably a little deep seated with that. If I'm at other people's houses and I see those things and I'm like, yeah. And then I will say, the other thing that I think moved me and has always been with me with this seed is just I've always felt like I've been a fairly confident person for whatever reason. Like, my grandfather is very known in our area. He was a school teacher and then an entrepreneur as well. So anywhere we go, people would say his name and he'd stop and chat and shake the hand. And as a kid, we'd be like, let's go. Come on, we're trying to leave. And now, later I realized, oh, that was like networking. It wasn't the Internet in the good old days. It was business card. My how with the logo. The truck with the logo. Word of mouth.
I think seeing confidence in just his natural personality. I was a confident person, and in high school one time, I was like, well, I like to just see sometimes if I can accomplish things if I just want to try, set my mind to it. And I decided I was like, let me just try out for cheerleading. Just because.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Just because.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah, whatever. Because I was like a band person. And again, it's like a small school, so some of the kids did. We all did everything for the most part. So I was like, let me just see if I could try out and make it. And we go through the whole process and everything like that. And then come the selection day, they called my name, and I was like, me? And they're like, yeah, you. I was like, oh, all right. And I'm like, oh, crap. Now I have to figure out if fit it this into the thing. But it was fun to get confidence from being in a small group in front of. So learning to be in front of a crowd and then just developing the mindset of, maybe you don't like me or get me, but that's okay. You either like me or you don't in life. And I don't really dwell on the people that don't get me. I want to be around the people that do get me. So that's always been a part of. I think my makeup is like, either get it or you don't. And I'm okay with that. It doesn't mean I don't just like you if you don't get me.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: No, but I tell you, that is a wonderful skill to have at a young age. Most adolescents care what other people think about them, so they don't act or be themselves. They be the person they believe other people will like. And you mentioned the term popular people. I admire the fact that you could be true to yourself at such a young age. That is rare in these days.
So I can see how that helped you through it. Now, you have a beautiful mix of strength, and we've talked about the resiliency, but you have a very empathic side of you. And I know you've told me a story of tragedy in your life where someone passed, and, you know, I had told you when my dad died, I was there when it happened that you've experienced that, too. How did that situation, if you want to tell a little about that, mold you into the type of human being you are now, which is a very giving, authentic person?
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Well, I think that experience, my experience was my sister's husband passed away at a young age due to kidney failure. He needed a kidney transplant, and not enough people donate their organs, quite frankly. So he was a young, healthy person who repercussions, because of that disease, took him. And that was like, whoa. My sister, we were one time at the bookstore, and she just had a breakdown because I was just trying to get her out of the house right after it happened. Then we were looking at the grieving books, and she's like, I'm so pissed. And I'm like, why? She's like, they don't have any books that say you're 28 and your husband's dead.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Oh, boy.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: And I was like, that's true. It's all like, old people or military people losing from combat or different sort of circumstances, but not really anything. Totally addressing, like, a young person who they're just trying to figure it out. And this happened. And, oh, by the way, my nephew is, like, one month old now. She's a new mom by herself. And so that whole process taught me to really just, especially any relationship you have, work relationships, interpersonal, and certainly who you're sleeping in bed with at night and how you interact with your kids. But more like interpersonal relationship idea is that I feel that I'm getting into a situation or in a relationship with someone where it's conflict, drama, high tension, anxiety, any type of red flag activity that's like an I'm out kind of moment, because here's how I look at it is, any second could be our last second. We don't know. Obviously, we don't know what our clock is when this stops ticking.
Since we don't know that, we do have to guard our energy and our interactions very carefully. And so it's not crazy to say if this previous moment that I had in my life right now was the last one and I got to the pearly gates and had that moment, would I be okay with it? Or would I be pissed okay because I was in anger or it was drama or I was stressed or I was living in weakness or letting the world overcome me or whatever it may be, right? So to me, it's like, I very much judge interactions by energy a lot and how my radar kind of hits to them and things, because I think it is important to guard ourselves to make sure that we allow most all of our moments in life to be good moments, right? So anytime it happens, we're okay. Ultimately, we want to be okay with it as much as obviously we can be, even though we're not in this form anymore, but we have to come to terms with, will we be okay if that happens tomorrow or whatever from now?
Do we have good engagements? Do we value ourselves? Do we make good impact on others?
My grandparents were very giving and did a lot of great things. And again, for community, it's like, how can I sometimes help my fellow man? And it doesn't always have to be like, I think, money or even volunteering, but it's like, are you a good person in general? All the time?
You see an old person crossing the street, would you help them?
Just little moments that kind of fill you with these things. And so you feel like, okay, my people in my job are not toxic. My personal relationships are not toxic, because now with social media and different things that we're getting put at us all the time, things can go from good to toxic and not good for us fast, right?
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, from what you've mentioned in your experience, and you've gathered a lot of wisdom, I know you're a best selling author. And the topic of your books, I'm sure, has come from what you've learned in life. You want to talk a little about your book series and what that's all about.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Sure. So my book series is talking about using the topic of the art of seduction as a mindset, principle and practice. So I know when most people hear the word, like the s word, the seduction, they're like, wait a second, that's not professional. That's like an HR nightmare bedroom problem.
Let's say that I talk about seduction from the lens of seduction equaling persuasion.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: And when we look at it, like, from persuasion point of view, certainly if we're being entrepreneurs, right, you're either being persuaded or you're trying to persuade all day, every day. Anyway, some people call it maybe other names, marketing, advertisement, PR spin, social media influencing, word of mouth advertising pop up at, right. So it can take a lot of forms, this dance that we're doing, right. And so I really think that looking at seduction in this way allows us to have a break from our normal black and white existence and mindset to one that's open to more possibilities, more color, being open to different ideas, and creating a different perception, really, in how you view and look at the world. So the topics of the book are sort of put together. So it's first you explore. So, in life, we want to explore the world around us. So in the first book, it's the idea, what is seduction? Why is it not bedroom like? It's not an sex book, the mindset book.
And confidence. Right. Confidence is at the core, I think, of everything in entrepreneurship. So if your mind's not right, you don't have confidence in yourself and your abilities. It doesn't matter how slick your marketing or gurus you pay or whatever you do, it's not going to click to the full ability that it can. So first, we explore the world, get the concepts going. Then the second book is about looking. So then we look at the world through what I call seducer's eyes, or essentially a new way of viewing. So we're all black and white. Let's look color. Now, how does that affect us? And I talk about a hierarchy as well. So Abraham Maslow talked about hierarchy of needs, and his top was self actualizing people. Right. So when you're in flow most of the time, right, you're in your calling, energy's flowing. Time is just like, long and short. And it's like if you've played sports or you found your passion or you're really into it and you lose track of time, that's really where we should be functioning all the time, theoretically. And so I create my own principles to get to my third tier, which is awakening your aura of seduction. Okay, so it's that it factor. So that you can have a meeting with someone, and maybe you only get one interaction with them, and then lo and behold, they're that person that they just always are sending you email referrals. Oh, hey, Melissa. I met someone know, and maybe you don't always pass them referrals or, like, with me. When I did my books during COVID and I had been off personal social media for about seven years, I consulted and did other people. So on the back end, I was doing social media, but my name wasn't attached to it. And so I had to be like, well, I've been off social. I'm going to use it, but no one's knowing. What the heck. So Covid was the perfect opportunity that I could pick up the phone like old fashioned and start to reach out and connect with people. And it was surprising to me, honestly, that maybe five years or more sometimes have passed with when I maybe saw that the person last and people were picking up my call in the first or second or third ring. Oh, hey, what's going on?
Just like, you don't miss a beat.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:49] Speaker B: And I think that when you have that sort of staying power with people and you make that impact and impression on them, it's easy, no matter how much time has passed, that you are always warm to them. And in business, like, warm equals cold hard cash.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Well, speaking of cold hard cash, tell us what you're doing now. I know you have a marketing flair and books and all that kind of stuff let the audience know what you're doing now to help better other people and yourself.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. So, for me, I've always been the type of person that I like to share things that have worked for me, and I'm always the first guinea pig. So that's like, even in the books, I talk about everything. I tell you I've tried on myself first. I do my own social experiments in life. You've heard me talk about some of them.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: And so as a result of that, and honestly, just people watching the book launch, that just created the chain reaction of having people reach out. Hey, I saw your book hit bestseller. I want to take a book and leverage it as a marketing tool. Right. As an asset to be an evergreen piece in my marketing game plan for my business. So I'm like, oh, okay, I can teach you. I can teach you how to do that.
Once you get it going a few times, the formula pretty much worked. So I have a partner, a co partner. His name is Frank Zakari. He's also best selling and award winning author. And our program that we put together is called trust the process.
I think that's very appropriate in life for everything, really. And it's essentially we do a customized and curated marketing campaign launch strategy for authors so that when they are ready to get the book out, they know how to do it in such a way that they leverage Amazon to their benefit so that they can become a bestseller and then utilize that to start to further open the door and get people in on their back end offers. So it's really about building a book to be a funnel, a lead magnet generator for you. So, of course, I tell people, like, you're not going to get rich from the book, right? We're probably not JK's, we're not Stephen King's out here amongst us, probably regular entrepreneurs. But it's all about visibility, credibility, expert status, and giving you that competitive edge, right? That's why people go and get MBAs, doctorates, JDS, MDs. Any little distinguishing factor that makes you seem like you're this much, quote unquote, better than the next person who's probably not. But the perception, right. Work with the perceptions that you're working with. So go to your strengths, work with that. So it's exciting to work with authors on a variety of topics. Your topic was obviously great about not being a people pleaser and how you change your whole life. We've worked with another author that she's all about talking about overcoming depression because she was to the point of killing herself.
She was going through processes and had a gun and the whole thing. And she was very far gone, medicated for years and therapy. So she finally, using neuroplasticity, which I know you talk about, retraining the brain, she's overcoming depression. And so now she's working with a membership similar like how you have one to further work with people in the smaller collective group to help them. So it's very cool that we get to work with all these people. And during the 22 months since we launched the program, happy to report, we've had eleven titles hit number one bestseller and number one new release in multiple, as you know, multiple, multiple categories.
That's the creative side, I think, because when we work with the author, we do customized content creation and really try to figure out what you're about, where you're going with the whys of it. We're into clarity because again, if you're clear, people can get behind what you have to offer. And so the creative process with that has been really fun and just good to work with a variety of topics. And it keeps my brain sharp too, because as I learn from authors, right, reading manuscripts, then I am like, oh yeah, that's great. Good.
Keeps my funnel brains sharp. And then the other thing is, just because I've always had a passion for public speaking and just sharing out this mindset principles, the powers of resilience and all about the inner confidence components for student leaders and people in the higher ed world, because I think, and you and I spoke about this, we can start to integrate these concepts before you get to 40, imagine how much better your life will be or even your late 30s. So now, looking at these places to speak on college campuses and universities and that type of thing, so that it, I think, plants the seeds that maybe not everyone has the benefit of. So that's been really fun to get a certification with that and now to be doing various meet and greets and get on the conference circuit and all that. So that's the next fun thing as well.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: Very.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Maybe some students will be ready to write their book. I hope so. Right? Like, they have a lot of stuff they could probably teach us, too.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: Yeah, we can learn from everybody. I have to say, I definitely trusted the process of your program. Trust the process. You helped me out tremendously.
I could talk to you all day, Melissa. So I got two final questions. Okay, first question.
You're sitting down with seven to ten year old Melissa and you want to give her advice about life.
What are you going to tell her?
[00:29:26] Speaker B: First of all, it's okay because you'll be able to get contacts.
I had to get glasses when I was in kindergarten, and I like the really thick, weird eyes, bottle glasses, really bad. So I would tell her, it's okay.
Don't always lose your glasses or whatever. Throw them in the tree. Apparently one time I was a kid and I threw my glasses into the tree and my grandparents. And when I was in college, I got a present one year for my birthday, and it was the glasses that they found when my stepdad was cutting the limbs of the tree down, it grew into the tree. My glasses.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: I love it. All right.
Don't throw your glasses into a tree. Can be.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Yeah, don't throw your glasses to a tree. It'll be okay. You'll get contact. But I think the main message would be that everything is always going to be okay, just as it always has. It always is going to be okay. And what you think will happen is probably it's not going to happen. Like you were saying before, we plan and everything is supposed to be this way. And for sure, up to a certain point, I would say I had a path that was similar to most of us, right? But it's like after college, right? Everyone's path just goes in some crazy ways and things. So I would say the things that you want to accomplish, you will accomplish, but it's not going to probably be in the end result that you think it will be when you see it when you get here.
When I was a kid, I was either going to be a model or a lawyer, but I won the young authors conference when I was in elementary school. So I always liked writing and different things. And so this idea of writing has been sort of like an undertone of different things. And writing a book had been in this notebook I had for probably over ten years. And when I looked at it pre Covid around Covid, many of the things were already checked off that list somehow, right? Like, without even keeping track of it, just having written it down, at some point, I somehow checked off a bunch of these things. And then just through the universe, meeting someone in a Facebook group, getting introduced to this person, getting called out in a group to say, you're writing your book right now. There's the know. And then not for that moment, you and I wouldn't have been to where we are this moment.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: No. So true. So that's great advice that it will happen, just not the way you expected.
Different hat last question. You are sitting down with young Melissa, the businesswoman entrepreneur, and you want to give her advice about business. What are you going to tell?
[00:32:22] Speaker B: Hmm. That's a good question.
I would say that I would probably tell me, keep being determined.
Don't give up on what you want to pursue as goals, because not all of them may be what other people think are goals that you should pursue or that they would pursue. Right.
Don't let others diminish your light, your confidence, and your belief in yourself.
Because I think the reason I try to stay on the side that I stay on is because there definitely have been a few times in my adult life where I was in a toxic personal relationship and a toxic work environment relationship, and it's probably not a coincidence that they latched on around the same times with each other.
[00:33:24] Speaker A: Interesting, right?
[00:33:27] Speaker B: And they both ended up being very similar to taking my confidence away in myself and how I act and feel and do things on a day to day basis. Meaning, like at the work, you're just talking to your coworker or telling them the game plan for the day, and you're like, are you gossiping at home? I'm texting my sister. Whatever. Who are you texting?
And I'm the bad one, but I'm like, I'm not a cheater, I'm not a stealer. I'm not a gossiper or whatever. So that then conflicts with your true core, who you believe your core identity is. And then it takes a while then to first break away from it and then get the PTSD emotions of things tied or triggers to it. And then even still after that, you still have to rebuild yourself to say, no, it's okay, you're allowed to look at your phone. You're not actually doing anything wrong. Like, you're not a cat burglar and you're not grabbing people in the van, and you're not an axe murderer. But when you get toxic or allow yourself to go there, you just think these things of yourself. And I think saying that keeping true to yourself and who you are, no matter how toxic the world becomes around you or knowing when it's toxic that you have to get away or it's like, live or die. Maybe it wasn't that extreme, but you have to almost make things when it becomes toxic, like it is really actually live or die.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: So you have to figure it out whether it's move away, quit the job, get help with friends and family to get funds to do what your pride might take a hit sometimes to get through things that happen that you find yourself in sometimes because of the energy and things do attach. So when you break away, that's where you then start to say, become grateful as you rebuild yourself process. Because sometimes we've had to rebuild ourselves, being a grown up more than sometimes a kid. But now I think that's reversed because of social media and the things that kids today have to face that we never did.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yes. I mean, the advice is don't let anybody take your confidence away. You got to give yourself that opportunity to be successful in things by doing things to get that confidence. And don't let anybody take that away from you because you earned. So.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: All righty. Well, people now have gotten to know the essence of Melissa van oss, and they're going to want to reach out to you. Let them know how they can easily reach out to you.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Sure. I am always on LinkedIn, so I think that's probably like the quickest, fastest, easiest way is to grab me on LinkedIn. Let's connect.
And yeah, if you're interested in learning more about the book process, I think it's always good to just learn before you jump in. And if you already have a book done, don't market it or let it launch until we. So don't start all over again because once it's out there, it's a little harder. But yeah, I think everyone has a story. So if you want to tell yours and use it for sure for your leverage of your business, let's talk.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: Wonderful. Well, Melissa, I'm grateful you're in my life and that we're friends. Thank you for being in my life. And you're a wonderful person. You're doing wonderful things. Keep doing what you're doing.
[00:37:00] Speaker B: I appreciate it. Thanks, Drew.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: Take care, everybody.
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and give us a review to help others find it. If you find yourself immersed in adversity and would like to find support from other men in times of struggle, please become a member of my men's supporting men collaboration tribe by emailing me at
[email protected] expressing your interest, and I'll get in touch with you. Speak to you soon. Bye.
