[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to from caving in to crushing it, the podcast for those who find themselves immersed in adversity and choose to write their story instead of having others.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Write it for them. I'm Drew Deraney, and I'm your host.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: Today's guest is Jamal Marshall. Jamal is a certified counselor and founder of Listen then Speak Podcast, on which he interviews best selling authors, entrepreneurs, and mental health advocates. He helps clients establish healthy boundaries by dealing with the root of mental pain points, which frees them up to reach their full potential and achieve lasting results. Jamal began his career at the Federal Bureau of Prisons, working in the Division of Public affairs in 2003 before transitioning to work at a nonprofit for website quality control and prison correspondence in 2010. It was during this time that he began to train and study to get certified in counseling. He then began traveling and public speaking in 2014 before taking on clients as a counselor, where he helped transform the lives of many men, women, and families. He soon took up the role as global lead at the International Justice Mission Organization to manage and collaborate with global HR managers in building out the programming for the organization's interns and fellow programs.
He was responsible for the program management and experience of more than 300 interns and fellows in 18 different countries. He was asked to be a guest on various global podcasts before becoming a podcast host himself and taking on his first online client in the summer of 2020 as a counselor in January 2023, he left his position as a global lead at the International Justice Mission organization to continue counseling, consulting, and podcasting full time. Today, the Listen then speak is a top 25% podcast, and Jamal has a pipeline of clients that are getting results that matter to them. Being in the corporate realm for more than 20 years has given Jamal the expertise to get his clients results. One must know the root causes of their behavior, as well as a practical path forward to disrupt toxic patterns that render us ineffective. Jamal is also a professional video blogger and often shares nuggets of wisdom from his life online.
Enjoy the show everybody.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Jamal Marshall thanks so much for coming on, my friend. It's great to see you.
[00:02:33] Speaker C: Thanks for having me, bro.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: I always love the pre recorded conversation because it gives me an opportunity just to refresh my memory and get to know the guest a little more.
And I was just commenting. I know the audience can't see this now because it's the first going out audio, but the signs you have behind you, one very heartfelt with a story and one cut a snarky and I love it, but we won't get into that now unless you want to, but I love, you know, I want to thank Jack Gillay for this introduction. I always like to thank the people who introduce us because it's wonderful to get to meet beautiful human beings from other beautiful human beings. So I thank him for that introduction. So, Jamal, I always like to first point out when I'm talking to somebody about how life is not linear. When we're growing up, we're taught that it is, and it's not our parents fault or our relatives fault or friends fault. So everybody passes on what they learned, and we're told that if you do a plus, b plus, c, d is going to happen, and it's not true. There's always going to be something that gets in between one of those letters and kind of derails our course and makes it more of a circuitous route. So I know you have a story, and I want to give you the opportunity to tell your story, and I'd like you to reach back as far as you need to, to locate that defining moment in your life that either tapped you on the shoulder or hit you upside the head with a two by four and made you realize, hey, Jamal, there's a better way to live. And I'm not going to retreat. I'm going to fight through this and become stronger because of it. Would you care to tell us that story?
[00:04:22] Speaker C: Man, the biggest thing is picking which one, because I believe that each of us, I mean, if you've lived on this planet, I say longer than 20 years, especially longer than 30 years. For those of us who are getting that place, you have defining moments that are momentous and moving you forward or potentially imposing.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: You feel free to pick more than one, because usually they kind of intertwine.
[00:04:51] Speaker C: Yeah. They usually on ramp to one another. But I would say, to date, the biggest defining moment would be the death of my father.
And I think it's how it happened.
He passed from natural causes, and I'm grateful for that. He was cared for, surrounded by people who love him.
And I was actually at the hospital when it happened.
But for the better part of 2017, he was really sick. He had had a major stroke, January 21 of 2017, that paralyzed his right size. So he had to learn to talk again, had to learn to walk again.
All of the occupational, physical, speech therapy did all of that. And then in July of 2017, there was a care plan to begin to bring him home. He was improving, but I was like, it's going to be a lot. Yes.
And one of my clients, his dad was a pilot, and so he would often just say, whenever you need to go home, you can fly standby. And so I was living in the midwest. I was a full time counselor back then, public speaking and promotion. And I was just coming home as often as I could. And it was hard having a full caseload, having all that work, having a complete separate life 500 miles away in the midwest, and coming back to DC. And then I finally got to the place where 2017 of April, I announced to my manager that said, I'm ready to resign. I'd wanted something. I was doing what I loved, but I wanted to do it in a different context.
And so there was a plan for me to come back to work in Columbia, Pennsylvania, as a project manager for an independent website, continue some mentoring and counseling. And I really thought, okay, well, and dad's going to be coming home. He's slowly starting to get better. So I finally got back. September 21. September 23, he got critically ill. Oh, jeez.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:06:58] Speaker C: Critically ill. And we pretty much lived in either the emergency room or the hospital for the next two and a half months.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:07:05] Speaker C: And then December 5, he passed away. For your audience, just to let them know, my faith is really important to me. He went home to be with the Lord when the doctors came to get me, because he asked to not be resuscitated, and they wanted that request.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:24] Speaker C: I came in, and he looked so peaceful, like I'd never seen him before. And I read a song over him. There's a hymn called Abide with me. I read a couple of stances of that. I kissed him on the forehead, and I said, james, I'm going to see you on the other side, man.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Wow.
[00:07:42] Speaker C: That was a defining moment, because for the first three weeks, it was really just a blur. My mother's birthday is December 10. My birthday is the 18 December. Their anniversary is the 31st.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Okay.
[00:07:56] Speaker C: Yeah, Christmas is the 25th. It's just so many different things that happen. I don't remember any of those things.
His service, his funeral was the 22nd. Beautiful service. So many people pitched in to help. So many people were there. But it wasn't until January where it hit me that I will never see this man again. I'll never touch this man again. I'll never be in his presence. I'll never get advice from him. And I hated God. I hated Jesus. I hated the gospel. I hated everything I stood for, everything I taught my faith. I questioned everything I was as a man.
And I went through a long season of just darkness. Instead of being this externally facing person that was traveling, promoting, and speaking and counseling. I just went in my room and just turned on YouTube and ate cereal and threw a hoodie on. I became very isolated.
I chose to not take the job up in Pennsylvania because I felt like I wanted to stay close to home just to honor my mom in the early stages, of course, and I would just walk outside. There was a tennis court not too far from where I live at. It wouldn't be anybody on it. So I'll just go out there and just yell f bombs all day. Oh, yeah, that was my prayer life. That's at least what it had become. But that's all I knew to say. I didn't know to say anything else.
And slowly what happened? I started going to this group thing called Grief share and kind of processing where I was, but I was raw. I felt like I was a little too raw for the people there because they were talking about, well, I've lost my husband or my mom or my dad or this, and I'm just praying. And I was like, I really hate this. I hate being here. I hate God. I wasn't holding back on any of the ways that I felt right. And even a friend of mine who was my former pastor, he really helped me just, he says, I feel like you can just be, don't try to come here. Church don't serve. He said, you've been running a breakneck speed for like eight years, and then you come home and your dad passes, you just need a break.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:05] Speaker C: And so I took pretty much nearly a year off, okay. And just took a break. And through walking out in nature, I figured tennis court.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:10:14] Speaker C: And I was just bidding exoplasia to the sky. And, I mean, I'm sure people will walk by and think, this dude is crazy.
I said, why don't I go into the woods? In this neighborhood, we have about four civil war forts.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:10:26] Speaker C: Deer and foxes and wild turkey, they.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Don'T speak English, so I'll just go.
[00:10:31] Speaker C: In there and do it. And somehow, being in that kind of enclosed nature, beautiful trails, God got a hold of me. It took months, nearly a year. But I kept asking, like, why'd you take my dad?
[00:10:45] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:46] Speaker C: And the retort was, Jamal, twelve years ago, I gave him to you as a best friend.
You didn't always have him like that. And most people who are listening to this podcast don't know. I had a very abusive childhood. My dad before, and it's a long story, but before God got a hold of him, he was a former crack and heroin addict and alcoholic.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Oh, boy.
[00:11:11] Speaker C: He was mean enough to be Satan himself. And so I grew up into my early 20s hating him.
[00:11:16] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: I had a lot of my own issues with smoking and drinking. It just wasn't an addiction for me.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Right.
Promiscuit numbs the pain.
[00:11:28] Speaker C: In high school, when I tried to become a person of faith, I said, well, I'll just look at pornography now. So I'm not hurting anybody. I'm not anybody. So just so many addictions and outlets to process my own pain. Being serious about my relationship with God. And I happened to be the one that led him to God in 2006.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: Wow, that's amazing.
[00:11:48] Speaker C: Never thought that that would happen. And then it wasn't until about 2008, 2009, where we really became really tight, or I went away to get some spiritual, mental, physical counseling for myself. Before I became counselor, I went, okay.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: All right, that's meaningful for you. Yeah.
[00:12:07] Speaker C: A lot of time and thousands of dollars into my own.
And then coming back before I interned and decided to go back full time, we just became thick as thieves.
What God's retort was to me was like, sometimes that never happens between fathers and sons and fathers and daughters. But someone you didn't have, I gave him to you. And think about the last year of his life. He was just existing. He wasn't really living right. And that was so true. The thing about when you're seeing your family pass, if it's slow, sometimes it's sudden, sometimes it's slow. He was just existing.
It was hard to watch him that way. I mean, the stroke, all the stuff with his kidneys, it was just eating him alive, of course. And so when I thought about the reality of where he is, and I'm sure you have an audience of a myriad of beliefs, but I do believe in heaven. Okay, he's really alive now. And that didn't take away the pain. No, but it helped me to process it in a way that was redemptive, in a way that said, all right, jamal, right now you're just existing. You are literally a shell of who you used to be, and rightfully so. You lost your just. That's what happens. Grief, it's cruel.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Yes, it is.
[00:13:20] Speaker C: It will knock the wind out of you. And so I got a second win, and slowly, I knew coming back to DC, I had to work.
So I found a job at a place called international justice mission. Came in as a contractor. I literally interviewed for eleven minutes. And then two months later, I interviewed with someone in HR department for five minutes at a Starbucks and got a job, a full time job.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:13:46] Speaker C: I'm going to tell you, once you talk to me, it's like, I want him on the team. Yeah.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Never long I have seen that, my friend.
I agree with you.
You have some kind of magnetism that draws people towards you. So I agree with Starbucks and that other place.
[00:14:07] Speaker C: Just God's gift, man.
It was wonderful. It was a worthy work. It's anti human trafficking. And I worked as a global lead, so that's a lot of capacity, managing 18 managers.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: In four different quadrants of our country.
But it wasn't what I was called to do.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:29] Speaker C: And I realized, drew, that I was on the run.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: God had me there for a reason.
But it wasn't until around late 2019, 2020, where when I was in the woods and I would do this praying, and for a minute and a half, I would take out this Google Pixel phone and I would record some thoughts. And so I knew nothing about social media.
Wasn't on any social media. I had LinkedIn because I dropped my resume there.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:59] Speaker C: And I put these videos on LinkedIn, and they started catching fire.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:15:04] Speaker C: Because I wasn't trying to draw, like, an audience.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: It really blew up around May of 2020. Okay. Because we started working remotely.
Covid. I had that hour and a half when I was in traffic heading to northern Virginia to my job in around here. I had an hour and a half of time in the morning when I could just walk. Wow. So we went through a pandemic, but also then we start going through, in the states, a cultural pandemic with the murder of George Floyd.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.
[00:15:37] Speaker C: And so I felt the need to speak to it in a way that was very bipartisan, and I think people weren't expecting that from me as a black american.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:50] Speaker C: And it wasn't super conservative, it wasn't super liberal. It was just like, okay, liberals think this way, conservatives think this way. All right, God, what's your heart on this? I don't really care what liberals or conservatives are.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
[00:16:02] Speaker C: Get in tune with a different frequency.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: I hear you.
[00:16:04] Speaker C: I think that's what made it stand out.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:16:07] Speaker C: Because everyone was singing like an alto, and I came in as a tenor, and it was like, oh, who's that?
[00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: That's kind of what put me on the map. But the defining moment happened long before when I decided to start living again and actually using my voice again.
We all have a myriad of superpowers, and one of mine is my voice.
And when dad passed, I didn't want to use that anymore.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: I just wanted.
[00:16:34] Speaker C: And so I think him passing and me processing that with God through very long, very dark road helped me to start, say, I'll never see him this side of eternity, but he's there in the ether waiting for me to start running my race. And it's like, man, use the gifts you have while you're still here.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:16:57] Speaker C: Live.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: I believe he's guiding you, too, man. He's with you on this journey because my dad passed away, too, in 2019, somewhat similar to you. I was there in the hospital when it happened. So I'm with you. You're my brother.
And I'll tell you, when you started using your voice again, did you find that you started to heal from within?
Did it start to heal you telling your story and using your voice? It did, didn't it? Because the same happened with me, and it was amazing. So tell me how that felt and how that really made you stronger to what you're doing now.
[00:17:40] Speaker C: I think sometimes I'm big into journaling.
We'll talk later about the work. But I even have my clients do a good bit of journaling.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: Okay, good.
[00:17:50] Speaker C: Which you write down you have to reckon with. But it's also because sometimes we have so many ideas and thoughts that come to us. It's okay to have that verbal journal.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: That's what I would videotape so much stuff. And people say, well, how did you get so good on video? I was like, I don't need a video coach. I've been putting in reps before there was even social media.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yes. Here. Right.
[00:18:10] Speaker C: I would just videotape it. That way I had a mental picture and visual of what was going on in my mind at the time. So telling my story became healing because it gave me the chance to process stuff I didn't even know was there.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
There's something about hearing your own voice with your own ears, about your own story that strikes some chords that have never been struck before.
And I think unless you've gone through it, it's very challenging to describe it in words. I do. So let's get to how this personal journey has put you in professionally and what you're doing now. Because I know you are reaching far and wide and helping a lot of people. I want the audience to hear that part of the story.
[00:18:57] Speaker C: Got it. So, folks, at its inception, when those videos went out on LinkedIn, there was a guy by the name of Mark Metri who was a pretty big account back then, and he was inviting people to either come on his podcast or be on theirs. And I just left a comment on his. Now, back then, he didn't know who I was. I had, like, maybe 500 connections. So he didn't see it, but someone else did. And it was a group by the name of the Safety Justice League, and they had been following my content. They said, hey, we want you to come on our podcast.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:19:31] Speaker C: Oddly enough, later, Mark connected with me.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:19:34] Speaker C: But more importantly, I got on their podcast, and I was wondering why. Because I was working an international justice mission. I didn't have a brand, didn't have a business, but they wanted to hear my story.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:19:45] Speaker C: So it was a panel podcast of three guys and one girl.
Man, that interview was just phenomenal because they asked me about my story, my past, my dad, my thoughts on what was happening here in America at that time. And the female panelist, I remember something she asked me. She said, are you a podcast host? And I said, no, that's not really my thing. She said, you should be.
And so the group, this is how things come full circle that I was actually supposed to work for. I loved it. Yeah, they heard that podcast. No way. Yeah.
We didn't know you were like that, CEO. I didn't know that you were like that. Good. So he says, I'm sending you $2,000. I want you to get yourself a MacBook pro.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah. All right.
[00:20:36] Speaker C: We're going to actually give you a domain, and you want with it. And that's where listen to speak was born. And it was initially supposed to be like a racial reconciliation sort of fight podcast. But I didn't feel, even though that's very important to me, right. That I was the one to carry that mantle.
I kind of played and toyed around with it, and I said, ultimately, that's an inception. I'm a counselor.
I'm a certified counselor. I'm in the mental health know. I think I can maybe make a combination of.
So. And there was also a guy by the name of Rob Jollis, who was my mentor, a jewish man. And he going to. He bought me a mic, the actual mic I'm speaking on right now. All right. But he said, you need to get to work.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:21:28] Speaker C: And also purchased me some space at simplecast because I was just starting to work, just getting on my feet and I on all dad's bills. And so it was weird how I wasn't looking for a listening speak, but it was looking for me.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:43] Speaker C: It was God's way of saying, like, listen, you've been running from this for a while. This is what I called you to do.
And I remember having my first guest on was a five time best selling author. And he said, I have some feedback for you. It's actually one of my mentors. And this guy's about his business. He doesn't play games. And he says, I've done thousands of these, and I will put you in my top 20.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:22:08] Speaker C: Keep going.
So that put confidence in me, like, okay, I do know how to interview, and I've been a counselor for years. I've been doing this work for ten plus years, 16 plus years experience. My understanding human behavior helped me to pull something out of my guests that other people wouldn't.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Absolutely.
That is a gift, Jamal. And actually, I listened to one of your episodes on Listen and Speak, a young lady who was of indian descent. It was a fascinating, fascinating episode. And your ability to really. It is listen and speak because you have this gift of listening to her words and her tone. But you're able to be that objective middle. Like, you could have your views, but like what you said before about speaking to the middle, the bipartisan piece of it, it had me gripped. I listened to the whole thing and it had me thinking differently. And there were terms I never heard of.
I kept googling some of the terms that she was using in the URL. I'm like, what is that? Oh, I get that. So it was really, thank you for that because that was fascinating. And I'm going to be listening to more of your episodes. So that was definitely a calling. And you are as good as advertised, my friend.
[00:23:29] Speaker C: That's very kind of you, Drew, because I know you don't say anything you don't mean.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Absolutely. Oh, yeah.
[00:23:34] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: So tell me about what you're doing now and what you want the audience to know about you, because they are going to want to get in touch with you.
[00:23:42] Speaker C: You got it. So obviously, since then, I've done many podcast episodes since the first. But what that's done is that's also opened doors. Two things I do also, as I understand, I do human behavior. I'm a counselor. So in July of 2021, thing I didn't tell you is that through all the content, it's not so much the people who like and comment on your stuff, it's those who usually don't comment. But it was somebody who was commenting, and they came into my dms and they said, are you a counselor? Because it says your things as a global lead, because, you know, your profile, that's your landing page. I do nothing about that stuff. And so when you don't have a profile that matches what you do, you have to do a lot of explaining.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:24:28] Speaker C: This is July 2020. So the brand is not what it was today.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: No. It's evolving. Yeah.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: Actually share with her. Yeah, that is what I am. She said, are you, like, a public speaker, too? And so she says, I have a family member that really needs some of your help. That was the first inbound lead I took after one, two years of not doing any counseling at all.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:24:48] Speaker C: And so I was still working at international justice mission as a global lead, but it was a side gig. And 2021, I said, okay. I'd had a really good experience, got good feedback.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: I said, wait a minute.
[00:25:03] Speaker C: I need to protect myself legally. So that's when I got applied for the LLC.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Got it.
[00:25:08] Speaker C: That's where listening to speak LLC was born in June of 2021. And then with the podcast, one thing I did not do was sponsorships, because I like you. I'm a city dude. I'm not going to say what I don't mean. I'm like, okay, I got to push your little product. Exactly. I really probably like, I don't like this stuff.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: No, you got to like it.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: Yeah. The way I monetize, listen, and speak is a lot of different guests come on. And, I mean, some of these people are multimillionaires, right? Give them a good experience. They say, you know what, man? I've made an amazing connection with you. I want you to come into my company as a consultant.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: That's wonderful.
[00:25:48] Speaker C: There's some teams there that need some of your help. And so, you know, a consultancy, it pays pretty well. And so outside of doing the public speaking, counseling, I also do consultancy, because human behavior, when people see that you get them and that you solve problems from the inside out, that's what opens opportunities. So just for your audience, I want to let them know. Like, I do consulting, I do one on one, and I do public speaking.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: I love this, Jamal and the audience, you know, this, that. Many of us are suffering in silence, and many of us decide not to speak to people because we haven't found the right person. The right person is out there to be there for you to listen and to speak. And it's okay to test us all out, because each one of us is not always going to be right for you. Somebody out there is right for you. Don't be afraid, please. Or do it scared. Ask for help, because there are people who just did it scared and found somebody like Jamal and they're better for it. So I could talk to you all day, man. I'll tell you, I do have two final questions, if that's okay with you.
[00:27:07] Speaker C: That's fine. Go for it.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: All right.
You have the opportunity to sit down with young seven to ten year old Jamal, and you want to give him advice about life. What are you going to tell him?
[00:27:23] Speaker C: This is going to sound really trite by telling, man, just be yourself, please be everything God made you to be and be everything you're not, and you don't have to please everyone you run into. Some people are going to like you, man, and some people are not going to like you. Be okay with that.
I would say there's going to be nearly 8 billion people on the planet. Some you're going to hit, some you're going to miss, and that's okay. Don't put pressure on yourself. You're going to weigh yourself out.
[00:27:57] Speaker B: I love that. Yeah, don't put pressure on yourself because we tend to do that. Right. There's enough pressure out there. No need to put more on yourself. Right?
[00:28:07] Speaker C: That's basic arithmetic. When I realize this, I tell myself this almost every morning. The math will always math in your favor, Jamal.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: Always love that. The math will always math in your favor. I love that. All right, put on a different hat. Now. You're sitting down with young Jamal, the young businessman entrepreneur, and you want to give him some advice on business. What are you going to tell him?
[00:28:30] Speaker C: Fail.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: I love.
[00:28:35] Speaker C: It's an opportunity to learn. See the silver lining. Young man, young entrepreneur. If you are dotting your I's and crossing your s, you're going to wear yourself thin trying to make sure everything is perfect.
Just do it. Some of even the best podcasts are done inside someone's car, on the phone, and the production team cleans it up. Don't look for perfection. Don't worry about that fallacy. And you're going to make bad decisions. You may even make some bad investments. That's what writes your story. Autobiography goes out, people say, oh, okay, I'm getting some wisdom, I'm getting scholarship off his mistakes, or I did that, too, and that's how he overcame. But if you have a perfect white picket fit story, who's going to listen to you?
[00:29:22] Speaker B: So true.
We need to have something be challenging in life to compare it to, because comparison us to somebody else is really not healthy. But compare yourself to yourself, right? That's how you learn. That's the wisdom and experience.
That's great advice.
When we are in our education system in this country, we're told not to fail, right? You have to get a's and you get something wrong. And we're afraid of making a mistake. We're taught the opposite. Mean, yes, there's good parts to our education system, but I'm telling you, we are not taught financial literacy. We are not taught how to fail and how to bounce back. And I believe that that's going to come from people like you, Jamal, in helping people that it's okay to fail. Actually, it's good to, you know, always take what you hear in school system, government, all this stuff. Take it with a grain of salt, and then go out and find a human being who has been through the fire and bounce it off.
Know, he'll listen and he'll speak, and you'll get something out of. So, Jamal, you are the man. Thank you. So, know I'm grateful you're in my life. And again, thank you to Jack Gillette. You did it again, Jack. You're a very good connector, my friend.
Any parting words you want to tell the audience, my friend?
[00:30:49] Speaker C: Definitely. The easiest way to find me is you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm the only Jamal Marshall on LinkedIn.
I'm sure my website will be in the show notes. Listeninspeak.com.
I'll say this, and this can sound a little crass since that word that rhymes with, uh, we've had coaches out the wazoo. I'm not a coach. I've even been told by marketers, you should market yourself as a coach. It sounds sexier. I'm okay to say that I'm a counselor. I'm okay to say that I actually work from the inside out with root causes. I find something with coaching is that it often keeps people in a cycle of coming back. I want to, in about six months, to not have to work with you anymore because we've actually gotten you some results. And so I work with root causes of behavior, where a coach will work from the outside in. No, inside out. And we actually tailor this thing to actually get you results that you care.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I tell you, Jamal is a real deal because, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Jamal, you know that people have those tools within them, right? And you help get them out, and then you can walk away, but you've taught them how to work with the tools from within, and then they don't need you anymore.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: That's it. You don't want to keep someone dependent on you. That's a money grab.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: Yes. It is. Yeah.
Depend on yourself. You can use somebody like Jamal to help to get that greatness outside of you and then take it on, so. Well, thanks again, Jamal. Appreciate you, man.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: Thanks for having me, Drew.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: All right. Hey, everybody out there, be well.
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and give us a review to help others find it. If you find yourself immersed in adversity and would like to find support from other men in times of struggle, please become a member of my men's supporting men collaboration tribe by emailing me at
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